Posts by Indian Larry

That is a new one on me. Was that in print somewhere? I would be very interested in seeing it. I think my wife would have a real problem with that one, I would love to show it to her.

375

The Governing Body intends to announce significant changes in academic literature (DOCTRINES) - Brazil

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

dear randall.

good morning!.

here is the daniel of brazil (former bethel).. this week at the forum of former jehovah's witnesses had an interesting news!

Indian Larry

Marking. I can't wait to come back to this thread in December and see what turned out. I believe Jim_TX has a good point re. the Conti case however to me that does not sound like "doctrine"

My personal vote is something to clarify the 144,000 mess and while they have the elders there beat them over the head about the pedophile mess. No need for any MS that don't know about Candice Conte to find out now is there?

Quitting door to door is doubtful. Perhaps cut back on it some to save some paper, push tracts more etc.

The blood issue: They want out of that badly, however if they have "new light" on the blood issue they will be asking for a LOT of grief. Lawsuits from families of those that died, especially in the time between when the "new light" struck and when it was made public. Then there would also be HUGE fall out from all the older Witnesses. They will not mess with blood. Just allow every fraction they can and then some but still keep saying that they don't accept it. That is thier only choice and that seems to be what they are doing.

DF'ing: The are keeping that. That is the whip that keeps people in line. No way they are letting go of that control

All in all my guess is it will be something to do with the 144,000. I was having a "discussion" with my better half last night and told her that she would believe whatever the FDS tells her to. Jokingly I said if they tell you that all Witnesses should partake of the emblems, next spring you will be eatin' some crackers. I had not seen this post when I said that, but wouldn't it be ironic if it turned out that way.

5

Are Jehovah's Witnesses the only ones that will survive Armageddon?

by God_Delusion in

hi guys & gals,.

i keep getting asked if jw's are the only ones that will survive armagenocide.. here's my response those emails - http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/armageddon/jehovahs-witnesses-are-the-only-ones-that-will-be-saved/.

jaymes .

Indian Larry

It depends of if you belive the Governing Body or the Bible.

Here is what the GB says:

*** w93 9/15 p. 22 They Compassionately Shepherd the Little Sheep ***

But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.)

*** w90 11/1 p. 26 par. 16 Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities ***

We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization.

*** w81 11/15 p. 21 par. 18 ‘Stay Awake and Keep Your Senses’ ***

And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a “great war cry.”

*** w67 8/15 p. 499 par. 4 The Way to Security ***

This signifies that the provision of salvation is closely connected with Jehovah’s organization. A remnant of the spiritual priestly class is still on earth today, forming the nucleus of the congregation of Jehovah’s people. We cannot ignore the role the visible congregation of Jehovah’s witnesses plays in this provision of salvation

*** w67 8/15 p. 503 par. 19 The Way to Security ***

This is a warning for us. It shows us that we must remain in the antitypical city of refuge as long as the divine provision demands it. If we want to assure our everlasting salvation, we must stay within the bounds of Jehovah God’s loving provision associated with his visible organization, presided over by his High Priest.

*** w61 11/15 p. 692 par. 16 Publishing the “Word of Life” in a Dying World ***

To understand the Bible for their salvation they had to have it explained through God’s organization.

*** w52 6/1 p. 350 par. 27 Fixing Destinies in This Judgment Period ***

. Know that all living at Armageddon will be baptized, either with fire for destruction with the wicked or with salvation for life with the theocratic organization.

*** w52 10/1 p. 603 par. 22 A Strong Refuge Today ***

. Those desiring salvation must make for God’s organization, and find entrance into it and remain there permanently

*** w51 9/1 p. 535 par. 26 Will the Stones Have to Cry Out? ***

Thus these gain words of salvation and seek refuge and life through Jehovah’s organization.

*** w50 6/1 p. 176 Letter ***

The flood was a real physical catastrophe to the old ungodly world. The Battle of Armageddon will be likewise a physical catastrophe to this present evil world, and not something just spiritual. The ark of salvation that we enter is not a literal ark but is God’s organization;

*** km 11/90 p. 1 par. 1 Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization ***

They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established.

*** w06 5/15 p. 22 par. 8 Are You Prepared for Survival? ***

Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.

*** w50 6/1 p. 176 Letter ***

The Battle of Armageddon will be likewise a physical catastrophe to this present evil world, and not something just spiritual. The ark of salvation that we enter is not a literal ark but is God’s organization

*** w50 10/15 p. 382 “Be Fruitful, Multiply, Fill the Earth” ***

The ark served as a place of protection for Noah, his family and the animals he took therein. What did it picture? God’s provision for protecting his people at the present time from the catastrophe, the battle of Armageddon. (Rev. 16:16) And what is that provision? It is God’s organization, and it will serve as the place of protection from the expression of God’s wrath against his enemies, even as did the ark for Noah and his family.

*** w83 1/15 p. 27 par. 19 Armed for the Fight Against Wicked Spirits ***

As we study the Bible we learn that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. And just as in the first century there was only one true Christian organization, so today Jehovah is using only one organization.

*** w83 2/15 p. 12 You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth—But How? ***

Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.

*** w06 5/15 p. 22 par. 8 Are You Prepared for Survival? ***

) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.

*** w93 10/1 p. 19 par. 14 “Search Through Me, O God” ***

There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God’s Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation.

*** w93 9/15 p. 22 They Compassionately Shepherd the Little Sheep ***

But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation

*** km 11/90 p. 1 par. 1 Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization ***

They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation.

"We reasoned that, if Christ's coming was to end probation and bring irrevocable ruin upon ninety nine of a hundred of mankind, then it could scarcely be considered desirable, neither could we pray with a proper spirit, "Come, Lord Jesus, Come quickly."" SUPPLEMENT TO ZION'S WATCH TOWER AND HERALD OF CHRIST'S PRESENCE June 1879

*** w89 9/1 p. 19 par. 7 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium ***

Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.

*** w83 2/15 p. 12 You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth—But How? ***

Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.

In contrast here are some scriptures from the Bible that REALLY tell what is required for salvation

(Acts 4:12) Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

(that would include the name or any "organization")

(Acts 16:30-31) . . .And he brought them outside and said: “Sirs, what must I do to get saved?” 31 They said: “Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will get saved, you and your household.. . .

(Romans 10:9) For if you publicly declare that ‘word in your own mouth,’ that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.

(John 3:16) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

(John 3:35-36) . . .The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

(John 5:24) . . .Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.

(John 6:40) 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.”

(John 6:53-58) . . .Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.. . .

(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

(Luke 7:50) 50 But he said to the woman: “Your faith has saved you; go your way in peace.”

5

Are Jehovah's Witnesses the only ones that will survive Armageddon?

by God_Delusion in

hi guys & gals,.

i keep getting asked if jw's are the only ones that will survive armagenocide.. here's my response those emails - http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/armageddon/jehovahs-witnesses-are-the-only-ones-that-will-be-saved/.

jaymes .

Indian Larry

30

Crisis of Conscience, Apostacy and the Antichrist

by konceptual99 in

i've just finished reading coc and it's truely a thought provoking book that's given me much to think about.. one thing that has struck me is the way rf was disfellowshipped and how he tried to reason with the elders on the jc.

a key point of reasoning was that how the elders could define the disassocated one he ate with as "the antichrist" or one practicing the things described in 1 cor 9. apparently the elders either remain silent on the matter or said it was not for them to judge.. i thought the reasoning was really sound but i have been doing some checking on the definition of apostacy and the antichrist according to the society and it seems pretty clear to me that anyone guilt of apostacy becomes part of the antichrist.

characteristics of apostacy as defined in the it-1 book are described as follows:.

Indian Larry

Konceptual99 for what it is worth, my thought is that the antichrist is a person or group that denys Jesus Christ. By that definition neither Peter Gregory (who R.Franze had dinner with) or Ray Franz would be considered anti-Christ. It is quite the opposite as a matter of fact. It is because Ray was actually concerned with following Christ's teachings that he ended up in trouble.

Look at some of the definitions you gave for anti-christ and think about how they might apply to the organization:

the heeding of the “counterfeit words” of false teachers and “misleading inspired utterances”

Who is more the false teacher? The organization teaches many things that are certainly not true. For example that Jerusalem fell in 607BCE, that is not true. That they fortold that Jesus would return in 1914, they did not fortell that. That they are God's sole channel of communication to all of mankind, what do you think? That only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved at armageddon. The bible clearly says that we are not to judge. Period. That privelege belongs to Christ alone. How dare they be so presumptous as to say that. They also teach that only baptized witnesses have the "unrestricted" privelege of prayer. Again, it is Jehovah that hears prayer and it is up to him (not 7 imperfect men in Brooklyn NY) to decide who's prayers he hears. That is a pretty big claim to make, that you have to be baptised and follow the FDS (which in reality means follow the 7 men in Brooklyn) to have unrestricted privelege of prayer.

Apostates often seek to make others their followers.

Did Ray Franz seek to make others his followers? No. If you read his other book In Search of Christian Freedom you will see this clearly. He did not in any way shape or form try to start his own religion or even his own church. Neither did he join any other church organization. Jehovah does not need a "earthly organization" that is simply a fallacy that the society has repeated so many times that is sounds like the truth. The head of God's organization today is Jesus Christ. That is all. I know that is probably hard to understand, and frankly it will take a while to wrap your head around it.

Are there true apostates as defined by the bible? Yes, there are. According to the scriptures an apostate would be a person who denies Jesus Christ. There are apostates that post here on this board (a lot of them) that does not mean that every XJW is an apostate. In my personal opinion it does not even mean that someone that the bible defines as apostate is nessesarily a bad person. For many XJW's the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society ruined all religion for them period. It is certainly understandable that this happens.

For most JW's the organization and God are so intertwined that when you realize the organization is not true and you have been lied to (in my case) your whole life, the most natural course is to turn away not only from the org but from God as well. I did that myself for awhile, then I realized that just because imperfect men are wrong does not nessessarily mean that God does not exist.

For me the main thing that brought me back to the scriptures was a empty feeling in my soul. However I do not want to believe just because I want to believe. I looked at other religions, even Buddism but to me Christianity is the only one that has the feel of truth to it. Then I read In Search of Christian Freedom. It is an excellent book, in my opinion much much better than Crisis of Conscience. It helped me more to see what is really the good news of Christ Jesus.

As far as your family. My reccomendation is do not say anything, do not bring up any questions, steer clear of the elders. Look up previous threads on this site on how to successfully fade. Realize that you were/are part of a high control group, some would say mind control group and to a certain extent I believe that is true. Once you start to see the truth you will want to tell everyone, but remember they are still under the "spell" of the organization and they will look at you as an apostate for even hinting that the Governing Body can make a mistake.

You might approach it as though you are stumbled. Tell your wife that you have learned some things that bother you and you need to work it out in your own head. Tell her about the Candice Conti case, about the org joining the United Nations, tell here about Malawi and Mexico. But do it in a very very very very very slow manner. Drop out one small hint and leave it alone for a week or two. DO NOT OVERLOAD her or she will in all likelyhood come close to a mental breakdown. If you let out a little at a time and NEVER tell her what to think, don't try to stop her from going to the hall. Just ask questions.

Remember this, a question mark is a little hook. Use questions to get her to think for herself. Rather than accuse the organization of covering up pedophiles you might try something like this: " Honey, I stumbled across the transcripts of this case about an elder who was abusing young boys, he started before he was even a ministerial servant and abused young boys for years. How or why would the holy spirit appoint him as an elder if he was abusing young boys? Do you think Jehovah did that for a reason dear?"

Also if you have children you need to talk with her about the blood issue. Ask her what fractions that she feels should be allowed. Then ask something like "Why are we allowed to take someone elses blood that has been collected and stored but we can use our own?" or "Honey, I just don't understand the societies stand on the blood can you explain to me what scripture says which fractions are okay?"

Another tact would be to ask her to explain why the generation of 1914 is now overlapping. Most witnesses really don't understand this. They have a reflex to basically bury their head in the sand and put thier faith in the GB. That is wrong, but that is the way it is. By asking the right questions, you will get her to think. If you are missing meetings tell her if she can explain to you using the bible for instance why the generations "overlap" you will go for two weeks. Or tell her if she can make sense out of the blood issue you will go for a month. List out five questions on each topic and tell her if she can answer them you will keep attending. She won't want to look up the answers because in her heart she knows what she finds will prove her whole worldview to be wrong. It is scary. Don't lose your wife and family over these questions. Move slowely and others will let you out but do not cause confrontations, it is just not worth it. Never ever say you don't believe in the FDS. If that comes up just say you don't UNDERSTAND how Jehovah could appoint them and then they join the UN, or advocate blood use,(I personally have no problem with blood use) or protect pedophiles, etc.

Use sites that look up JW News and start a folder collecting news articles DIRECTLY from the source. She will probably be much more open to viewing info from newspapers or tv then from a site like this.

Anyway, whatever you do remember that the GB is not God and they do not represent him. You don't have to give up on your spirituality just because people who say they are spiritual are liers. I reccomend listening to podcasts by some Christian Apologists to strenghten your faith if you want to. I personally like Ravi Zaccharius, William Lane Craig and others along that line as they are not preachy but do build me up.

Good luck. : )

50

Conti Trial Transcripts and Court Documents of Attorney Zalkin's cases of 5 victims WT settled out-of-court, San Diego, all available to download using MediaFire

by AndersonsInfo in

the conti trial transcripts have been uploaded using mediafire.. .

conti trial transcript: http://www.mediafire.com/?oj940x48xuuaa.

the public domain court documents for the 5 victims wt settled out-of-court case in may-june 2012, attorney irwin zalkin, san diego, calif., have been uploaded using mediafire:.

Indian Larry

Downloaded. Thank you very very much. Going to read them now.

76

WT recently settled out-of-court with 5 victims of JW serial molester. Court documents now available to post on any website

by AndersonsInfo in

on may 20, 2010, a lawsuit was filed in san diego, california.

defendant, the watchtower of ny, settled out-of-court for an unknown amount of money with the plaintiffs just weeks before the candace conti trial began at the end of may 2012 in oakland, california.

the law firm representing the five plaintifs in this case was .

Indian Larry

Anxiously waiting for link. : )

3

Ex 7:1 ponderings

by leaving_quietly in

if god could make moses god (capital g, hebrew elohim) to pharoah, what prevents him from making jesus god to all humans?.

my point is: the concept of the father is god and the son is god is not a big stretch in light of ex 7:1, when god made moses god to one human.

jesus, being greater than moses, could easily be made god to all humans, and it would seem to fit the scriptures better, especially when considering john 14:28 and 1 cor 15:26,27, and, dare i say, john 1:1 as understood by most people.

Indian Larry

Leaving Quietly, that is a good point. Thanks for sharing it.

76

WT recently settled out-of-court with 5 victims of JW serial molester. Court documents now available to post on any website

by AndersonsInfo in

on may 20, 2010, a lawsuit was filed in san diego, california.

defendant, the watchtower of ny, settled out-of-court for an unknown amount of money with the plaintiffs just weeks before the candace conti trial began at the end of may 2012 in oakland, california.

the law firm representing the five plaintifs in this case was .

Indian Larry

Thanks in advance for posting these documents. I am looking forward to reading them first thing in the morning (hint hint) : )